Bucks for Breeding --- Goat Question

[Jenny]

What do you other goat folks think we should do here? We're getting 3 or 4 pregnant does, probably in a couple of weeks. Another friend is likely to have a new buck to sell us (we'll know in about a week or less). We live remote and have to fly the goats in, so it's going to be tight with 3-4 pregnant ones in kennels. I know that some folks would use one of the new bucks from one of our new does for breeding next year. But, is this a terrible thing to do. We're certainly not interested in raising goats for show or for selling, but we do want a healthy herd out here, and don't want to decrease the milk production by breeding like that. The little buck we get (if she has a buck) is from a good milking line on both sides, and I trust the person. But, the plane will be crowded enough as it is. Another option would be to use one of our new bucks born out here for one season, then buy another buck next year. It's just too expensive for us to fly goats out this year in 2 plane loads. What do ya think?

Thanks,

Jenny

[brent]

Hi Jenny,
Are you having them flown in on a Beaver or Otter? I would think that depending on how much other stuff you have on the same plane that either of them especially the Otter would have plenty of room. My other question is why can't you wait a little while longer until the buck is weaned or ready to be on his own and have them all shipped out at the same time? How far along are the does? Would it be possible for your friend to hold on to them until the buck is big enough to come out? Lastly, I'm not a goat folk but I do know with dogs that some in- breeding is ok and sometimes used to keep the line strong. But, you can also pass on the poor traits you don't want but you're only talking one doe in this case, you could omit her from breeding with him and if you had 2 bucks from the pregant does you could have one of them for opposite does. That would eliminate the in-breeding. The other thing is I would wonder if the buck from one of the does would even be mature enough by next year to reproduce with them. With whitetail deer the first year bucks aren't very productive at breeding. Usually takes 2 years for them to be mature enough and know what's going on.

Well, Jenny, from a non-goat folk you have my 2 cents worth.

brent

[Jenny]

;D

We're going to be using a Cesna 206. We thought the pilot would want them in kennels, but we just found out that he prefers to just put a tarp down and have them with collars and leads so he can just clip them in the back. Also will have somebody fly out with them in case there's a problem. So, won't be as crowded as we originally thought. The woman we're buying 2 of the pregnant does from has problems with her hands and wants to get rid of all her goats as soon as possible. She had someone willing to take them in May, but didn't want to wait that long. If we wait, then we'd have to wait until the ice is gone --- late May or early June.

Oh, let's see. You asked how far along are the does. ;D Well, funny you should ask ;D We were told they were recently bred and wouldn't kid until July. But we got a call yesterday that one of them just had 2 adorable bucklings yesterday morning! The owner is a midwife! ;D I haven't spoken with her. Just a mutual friend. She said the woman has been having her sister take care of the goats because her hands have been too painful to to milk them and work with them, so she apparantly got bred before they knew it. She's Alpine and the daddy is a large Saanen. The bucklings are white and large. I am guessing that the other doe from this herd will also have her kids soon, too. We're planning to fly them all out in about 2 weeks, depending on the other doe and if she kids.

As far as the other buckling goes . . . yes, he was already born earlier this week and we could get him. My understanding is that they take the kids off their mamas after getting the colostrum, then bottle feed kid replacer. So, if we get him we'll just continue that, unless one of our other does has enough milk and will adopt him. I don't think I'd want more than one breeding buck out here. They can be so aggressive and smelly. If we were set up better, we may do that later. In another thread, someone was talking about the advantages of Nigerian Dwarf Goats and their really high butterfat content. You can get lots more cheese from less milk than with the larger breeds. That's something we will consider later, but will need fencing and such to keep them separated better. Not ready for 2 bucks yet. We plan to wether any we don't want for breeding, then use them as pack goats later. We've had pack goats before and they're lots of fun.

I've heard the same thing about inbreeding goats. When you know what you're doing and have a herd big enough to cull and really work with them, it can work great. But I've also heard that it really brings out the bad characteristics, which makes it easier to know what to cull. Sounds like dogs would be the same, only you wouldn't just eat them. . . . would you? ;D

I got to thinking more about it. Unless we had more than one buck, and brought more out from time to time, we'd still end up inbreeding. Even if we get the other buckling, and if and if one of the does has doelings, then he breeds them next year, he'll be breeding his off spring the following year. In the long run, I don't think it will make all that much difference. In another forum, someone said we could use one of the little twin bucklings for about 7 years without too much trouble. I'm getting the idea that the decision should be made according to whichever one has the best genes from good milkers rather than worry about inbreeding at least for awhile unless I notice some problems.

I've read and been told that they are mature enough by 3 or 4 months. We probably would try not to breed until about October, so they'd be 7 months old. That should be fine. I have heard what you said about whitetail deer. Was raised in GA and hunted there. I would think it would probably be about the same with goat bucks, but I'd rather go ahead and use what we get. Don't want to buy an older buck. I want one who is used to being handled and tame. Once we bought a boer buck who was large and 3 years old. Never handled much and quite wild. It's pretty common for them to have horns, and ours did and used them. He was dangerous. Sure wouldn't want a goat like that running around with our little boys. Also don't want to wait an extra year to breed them. So, I guess I'll find out more about the genes of the other buckling and the ones just born, then decide. I'm leaning toward getting the little buckling from the other herd.

Oh, just realized that I wrote a book here, and I don't even know what I'm talking about ;D

Jenny

[silveraurora]

Well, first I'd ask if the goats are tested negative for CAE and for Johne's. If not, why bother to purchase them? You are investing allot of money for your living circumstances, you want longevity and health in this herd, you want clean milk for drinking and making good things to eat. CAE can lay dormant and show no signs, but it can also swell up joints and have a doe doing poorly both in the milking department as well as health to a point that at 6 or 8 years she has to be put in the freezer. What a sad way to live, a painful existance and a short lifespan from a respected and cared for contributing member of your family! It does not matter how much you 'trust' someone, what should matter is common sense - if the animals are positive for CAE why go through that for any amount of money! There are herds with CAE and/or Johne's here in Alaska and there are also many clean herds that do not have it, so when making an investment such as this it pays to be cautious. Remember, there are possiblities that Johne's or CAE can affect human health. I want to drink fresh unpasteurized milk and I want it from goats free of disease. Remember the Lord put the animals on this earth to provide for man and it is up to us to be good stewards, treat them kindly, and look after their welfare in return. CAE takes away from milk production too, the reason afterall most people are buying goats for. There is no need having CAE and producing yet more kids that will have CAE, so any CAE positive goats would have to be kept seperately from CAE negative ones - in order to have CAE negative kids you will need to pull them immediately at birth before they are touched or licked by their mother and before they can drink from her. Then you will have to milk her and pastuerize the milk at a set temp for a MINIMUM of one half hour, then feed it to the kids. This is the way to break the chain.

Currently, in Alaska, Johne's testing is free thanks to a federal grant. It pays for the vet to go out to the farm and to draw the blood and send it off for testing. When someone is to sell you animals, you have the right as a buyer to ask for negative CAE and Johne's results. If the owner does not test, you have the right to ask that they have a vet come out and test for both - you will be paying for the CAE tests you request, but that's only about $10-$15 per goat - cheap - and then the results will be available.

Every goat over 6 months that I flew up from the lower-48 was tested - I had them tested for CAE, Johne's, TB, Brucellosis, and the state-required Blue Tongue. All tests came back negative on all goats except one who showed Blue Tongue titers and thus that goat could not come to Alaska per state regulations. Many of the goats ended up costing me $900-$1400 each after purchase price, testing, crate, and airlines. But that is because I am breeding to sell quality goats that are healthy. I could have flown up a bunch of untested cheap goats - maybe if I was planning to eat all the kids that would have been fine and only for me, but that was not my intention. I don't sell my kids for any more than the same quality is sold for in the lower-48 where feed is less than half the price.

I'm just trying to caution you and your readers to be informed. Protect yourself from heartbreak, protect your livestock from disease, and produce healthy goats that others will also benefit from. If we truly care, we can stop the proliferation of diseased animals. :-)


As far as a buck - you certainly can use the buckling produced this year on your does next year, but you will need to have it set in your mind and in your heart that if any kids are born with any defects that you can humanely dispose of them. The chances are slim that in one generation a doe bred by her son will cause any problems, but the chances will double if he is bred again the following year to your doelings kept back. If any inheritable defects show up with a mother/son breeding, then be VERY careful as to what buckling you purchase for the next year. Inheritable defects usually don't double up visibly that quickly but if they do then you know that 'problem' is very strong in the dam's genetics. If you are prepared to dispatch any animals that have defects, then certainly go ahead with using a son to mother breeding.

This is just another reason to purchase does that are unrelated, as much as possible, when you are starting a new herd. If one doe demonstrates kids with things that are not acceptable - 3 teats, crooked legs, splayed feet, poor shoulder construction, hard keepers, etc - then you can keep kids to build on from your better producers and remember to plan on using the kids from the poor producer for dinner or pack animals but not for breeding. If you're feeding a goat, it might as well be a good producer both of kids as well as milk, since it costs just as much to feed a poor milker as it does a great milker.

It is wonderful to hear that you are working on selecting a new herd to build from! You just need to have good animal husbandry information to make that selection the very best one! I hope I'm not preeching to the choir too badly, but it really hurts to see people get animals without knowing what they could be facing, as in disease or mammary qualities, and spend what precious few dollars they have on such animals only to be terribly dissapointed. There are quality breeders in Alaska, you just have to search carefully.

Silveraurora